Ray Nkosi |MDC leader Morgan Tsvangirai was ZANU PF’s district political commissar during the Gukurahundi massacre, shock details reveal.
The MDC leader has admitted being Robert Mugabe’s top aide in the Mash Central province during the time 22,000 Ndebeles were being killed.
Tsvangirai first made the admissions during his 2004 treason trial in which he swore he would never seek to end Mugabe’s life.
“I regarded Mr Mugabe as my hero and the hero of the liberation struggle,” Tsvangirai said in response to a question by his lead defence counsel, renowned South African human rights lawyer Mr George Bizos. CLICK HERE TO READ THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE.
Asked if he ever plotted to kill Mr Mugabe or overthrow his government, the 51-year-old former trade unionist replied: “No, my Lord.” Mr Tsvangirai – who said he was a district political commissar in the ruling ZANU-PF party in the 1980s – told how he fell out with Mr Mugabe over policies restricting trade union activities and the government’s handling of the economy.
Sorry boet. As for the time being; none of us in Mthwakazi are prepared to be used again as step ladders for the so called majority tribes to rise to power. I sometimes feel pity for that boy Promise Mkwanazi with his “Sesijikile”; whose movement’s Ndebele name, his fellow supporters are not even prepared to use or pronounce.
He is just bieng used like Joshua Nkomo, to do the dirty work for Shonas for nothing; only to be thrown away like a condom, when its time to “eat”, as not being “part of us”. Once bitten, twice shy.
There is absolutely nothing worth sacrificing for; the flag; the country? I dont even know the national anthem; even if I hear it for the first time, I would not recognise it. But I know the Rhodesian one. And I know I am not alone in this.
May be after Mugabe is gone; and his tribal pro-Shona politics has began to wane, as it already is; only then we can talk. Indeed hardship teaches people a lesson in humility. So let the cookie crumble, as it should.
In the meantime, leave us to make money, whilst you abduct and butcher each other for power in Mashonaland.
You are, after all the cause and beneficiaries of all this. Carry on my wayward son – so the song goes!!
Hahahaha…You made my day,I’m not laughing because your piece is wrong ,nooo! ,I’m laughing because it’s all Sooo true.Was busy with some work had to stop to ponder on what you said.
Really it’s all true and hard hitting facts,I’m very empathetic to what you said.I can’t challenge anything,lest I betray my own integrity.
However I have this to say,not to oppose but to share another point of view.
1.As I said I respect Dr Dabengwa,not so much Welshman Ncube.But that’s my own individual bias ,which is allowed I guess.
I have this problem with Dr Dabengwa.Hr spends most of his time in SA ,or Gwanda or Lupane in some small meetings.Actually he spends more time in SA than he does in say mashonaland.To you what Does that mean?.
When was the last you ever heard of him campaigning in mashonaland,yes I know you will say mash west or Central or east are difficult areas to penetrate because of zanoids… However, what about harare province ?.Were he will not find much political resistance from zanoids.
Each time I read about Dr Dabengwa,he is at Witswatersrand university,or some other SA function…When do they, including Welshman Ncube, get the chance to charm the Shonas?.
If it’s Welshman Ncube,huh! What a joke ,the guy would rather send some Shona deputy of his to go to Harare or mutare.
So Tsvangarai is not wrong when he calls them briefcase parties.So I said Dr Dabengwa is an old horse znot because he is Ndebele ,but it’s obvious he lacks the vigour and energy to fight the good fight anymore….Now you can’t deny that.
So I have put to rest your talk of saying flimsy reasons against matebele leadership.
What matebeles need is the energy of Mqondisi of MRP ,but the spirit and soberness of Dr Dabengwa..If that could happen…Then matebeles would have hard leaders to match .
Come on,you can’t seriously think anyone is going to vote for a party they only heard of during elections!.Most young people don’t even know of zapu ,let alone Dr Dabengwa.So why should they vote for him?.
My sidelining him is not tribal ,it’s based on fact.Whats his manefesto?…whats his vision?…How would he rule Zimbabwe?.What are his solutions?..Just being close to J.Nkomo or having been a member of CIO at one time doesn’t make him a good choice.
Point made.
2.I wasn’t saying all the burden should fall on you , matebeles.I meant ,as matebeles it’s you who have alot to lose and alot to benefit.Sitting on the terraces as some suggest will only cost you more in the future.. Remember to the victors belong the spoils,and history is written by the victors.
If shonas are able to prevail without Ndebeles,trust me ,the status core will be all the more unbearable for you.
And I also meant ,as Ndebeles its you out who must show your leadership capabilities more ,you must try to outshine shonas as leaders at every turn…Create a brand ,not go to war..Nooo!.
As of now ,like it or not , matebeles don’t really have a brand of leadership which is capable of transforming ZIMBABWE.You have a 70 something year old ,ready to retire, and an indecisive lawyer ,who nearly lost his party to an idiot , Mutambara,after he had called him to lead his party…We want Ndebeles with a spin,who aren’t afraid..Like this tajamuka guy,Forgot his name ..He is Ndebele amongst shonas ..Saying noooo!.
We want Ndebele leadership which is fearless,which says .. ZIMBABWE is ours too…We are equal participants in this country ..I will not take a back seat…Trust me ,it might sound funny at first…But with time such a person will gain votes.
Am example is this old lady I remember in 2005 elections ,she was from Chinhoyi I remember…She contested the presidency twice ..As old as she was ,if she could do it why not young educated , determined matebeles?.Is ZIMBABWE not your country too?
Well if they say ZIMBABWE is for shonas ,ask them the title deeds.You think someone will hand you fair treatment!…No my man,fight for your space….If you don’t succeed…Your kids and our kids will see sense.
But we have a crop of jelly kneed matebele leaders …Who whisper that “..Only a Shona can lead ..” ,well shonas will lead till kingdom come ,till you lot ,see sense..That it’s your country too.
All the effort of Mqondisi,could be better channeled to national politics… Look at how J.Moyo has created a brand of himself…We all hate him.. But few see him in tribal lenses ..He has fought the good fight.Why can’t all or some .
Food for thought
You see my problem with you and many Shonas like you?
You like running away from taking responsibility. You are the majority in numbers; but you are placing the responsibility of changing the situation created by your majority numbers voting for Mugabe in the past, on a minority from Mthwakazi.
As some people have always said; those majority numbers are not for flaunting or bragging; use them to change the negative situation you created.
Do you really appreciate just how few the people of Matland are compared to Shona people?
The politics of Zim has to change and be all inclusive, before you can expect the people of Matebeleland to once again place themselves in harm’sway, as we did during the liberation struggle. Zim politics is pro-Shona; everywhere the general narrative is pro-Shona – its yotally exclusionary. So why do you expect our sacrifices, where we are not seen as fellow citizens and dont stand to benefit?
Even Tswangirayi has been talking about this politics of exclusion against fellow citizens. People are saying why should we sacrifice for Shonas to be Presidents, when they are not willing to support our people.
Short of being outrightly tribalistic; because you know its not acceptable, you always come up with flimsy excuses about supporting Mthwakazi politicians, like you are now doing about Dabengwa and Welshman.
Most of the Shona politicians you choose to support are clearly outright dictators, but you see nothing wrong with them. Some have messed up big time many times, but you are always prepared to excuse them; hide their weaknesses etc etc just because they are Shona. Instead you vhoose to point to minor issues about Dabengwa and Welshman; in some cases even create issues that you know are none existent and were long explained; like this Mutambara issue. Please give us a break.
These are some of the reasons why I washed my hands of Zim politics. There is too much dishonesty; too much lying and covering up for bad leadership, because they are one of your own.
The possible ganging up of Shonas in support of ZANU PF because of the MRP, and possibly also in support of Mnangagwa against the people of Matebeleland that you allude to, will not gain any regional, AU or UN suppport.
You people seem to forget that global politics has changed and human rights have become the central issue in global politics. These are not the 1980s and ZANU PF already has such a terrible record; I dont see them getting much support globally in this; especially after Mugabe.
Chances are high that the MRP, with its non violence approach might even be listened to by the internationally community, based on its UN recognised stance of self determination.
In fact, it should not be difficult for them to produce all the evidence of marginalisation over and above the Gukurahundi issue of the 1980s.
All Mthwakazi needs to show the world is what has become of them in the last 37 years, both linguistically and culturally, compared to what they were in Rhodesia. Evidence of cultural and linguistic ethnic cleansing abounds everywhere in Matebeleland in particular and Zim in general. It souldnt be difficult to convince world bodies.
So MRP vs ZANU PF post Mugabe? I say hold your horses – dont count your chickens before they hatch. Thats my warning. We are in a different world. The world no longer respects sovereignity to the extent of allowing the butchering of felliw citizens in an economically, militarilly and politically weak landlocked country such as Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is not Syria, Israel, Russia or China. Just a few weeks ago, Ecowas was also ready yo show us how its done these days; dealing with human rights abusers.
Post Mugabe, Shona people will be making the biggest mistake of their lives in siding with ZANU PF, just because of the MRP. Instead, they will in my view, be well advised to seek to get rid of ZANU PF and correct the imbalances that were created by that evil party, for the sake of the future of the country.
Thats my take on your contribution!!
It does matter Ndebele or Shona all inclusive. Some Shonas supported and voted for ZAPU even right in Mashonaland and some Ndebeles voted for ZANU that is what is called freedom of association.
You might be right,that MRP is only on cyberspace. However, Remember that ..There is an estimated 4 million Zimbabweans in the Diaspora from SS, Namibia, Botswana etc …And their only link back home is cyberspace.
Just look at the anti ndebele sentiment rising amongst shonas on cyberspace of recent ,it will show and attest to what I said ,that any MRP win or any death of a Shona because of a targeted attack by MRP or some other Siwela will be used by Zanu pf to rally all shonas to them…And trust me many ignorant and indoctrinated shonas will flock to zanus politics.
A person like Mngangwa needs MRP to get the country’s top post.Most shonas hate him…But imagine what the ordinary shonas would feel if a party MRP were to get traction and go overboard…. Mngangwa will be in charge and Ndebeles and shonas be the losers.
Hence why I said we both have a responsibility to change the dynamics of Zimbabwe.This issue of saying shonas must remove Mugabe or Zanu is dead ..And will get everyone to suffer more.
To me , Dabengwa, though I respect him,is a spent force that can’t rise again.Zapu needs new blood ,which is not tribalistic,not regional centres but nationalistic.The ball is in your court actually,as Ndebeles to rise to the occassion…It’s you who has most to suffer and you who has most to benefit…Since the whole system has been largely skewed to the benefit of shonas.
Welshman Ncube ,is not charasmatic enough to lead ,he even asked Mutambara to lead on his behalf….
We need vibrant young Ndebeles and shonas ,who say Zimbabwe is ours ,who won’t faint even when faced with tribal sentiments….They will hold ground.after all ZIMBABWE is for ZIMBABWEANS…No one has the title deeds of Zimbabwe.
No shona ,no Ndebele…But if you shy away and say they hate us…You will forever be deputies.
I’m particularly looking forward to a Ndebele president..So that I can see the other side.A different approach, to what we know.
Quite frankly, the MRPs of this world are not being strengthened by Mthwakazi people; because most people there dont even know about them.
They are being strengthened by ZANU PF’s pro-Shona tribal politics in Zim in general and Mthwakazi provinces in particular; and above all by Shonas like you, who recognise and give credence to their secessionist message, that is far above the recognition they really have in practice on the ground.
I personally, dont believe there is any tribalistic Politician hailing from Matebeleland, who currently leads a political party with a national agenda; and to be precise these are only two – Dabengwa and Welshman Ncube. They are certainly none tribalistic in my view. They are only tribal or tribalistic to those who have totally lost or have never known what the very word tribal or tribalism means.
The tribalistic ones are the rest who are leading provincial regional parties; and they have never hidden that. For that, blame ZANU PF and their Shona supporters!!
As a sane and sober minded person I cannot in good conscience argue with any of the points you said ..Shonas have been used by Zanu ,and it’s now like a desease that we have …We think,not me of course,that ZIMBABWE is shonas only…We have been Soo indoctrinated by wrong ideologies that we seem to think Shona is right all else is wrong….
Actually I differ in that,I don’t believe as a person I should speak Ndebele in matebeleland…But I can speak my language,Shona, yet speaking to a Ndebele he answering me in his language, Ndebele,that is inclusive.
Pointing out what’s wrong can never be wrong….Our people our country,needs re education.Not from extremists like Zanu ,or MRP ..But from sober minded people who can guide us ….
The ball is not in my court …But our court….
The moment we allow MRP or Zanu to succeed,then we have lost.Do you think anything positive can ever come from hate initiated programs..Like Zanu or MRP?….Nooo!.They will drag everybody down their Hellbound path.
And it’s not about shonas only…But about all of us.Both Ndebeles and shonas have grievances…They need to be looked into.The Ndebeles have more , obviously,but we all need to seat down.
An MRP win in Matebeleland will start a tribal whole new political dimension that will not benefit anyone.A Zanu win means everyone loses.
Some ignorant people think that ,the coming of MRP means liberation,no!It’s not ,it only gives the zanuoid more power to control the country throw the military,and they will have a message for all Shonas to believe that Ndebeles are the enemy..So it will start a whole new cycle… Because Shonas will definitely rally against any so called Ndebele enemy, Remember most have been indoctrinated that Ndebeles are foreigners..Yet we know most Ndebeles are Zimbabwean, Bakalanga,tongas,nambya,etc..All that won’t matter.
The strength of Zanu is the shonas they have indoctrinated…To fear Ndebeles,it just takes one stupid Ndebele leader like Siwela to spooke shonas ,it takes just one Shona to die for them to preach we told you so!.And MRP and the like are playing right into that….By their mantra they are spooking shonas,they think their war is with Zanu …No it’s now with every Shona.Which is worse for them
I understand why groups like that appear…But trust me ,just like Hitler preach hate and failed ,so will they.Wether or not their goals are genuine..So long as hate is their foundation,they will fail.
I look forward to seeing a leader from Bulawayo,who is not tribal,and one from Mashonaland who is not tribal …But nationalistic.
PS. Infact, just get rid of Mugabe’s ZANU PF Shona tribalism in Zim; especially in Matebeleland, overnight those MRPs, MLOs and MLFs will have no reason to exist. They will disappear. Its that simple. The ball is in your court – I mean the average Shonas and their ZANU PF fellow tribalists of the “andinzwi chiNdevere”; “and there will never be a Ndebele President” mentality!!
It is wrong of you to always revert to yourself in person whenever you are cornered. This discussion is not about you; how you feel or your attitudes towards other tribes. Its about the average Shona out there, who has been indoctrinated by Mugabe and ZANU PF’s tribal politics in the last 37 years.
My friend I can not stop pointing out the issues I regard as fundamental to co-existence in Zim. Just because it points to Shonas and you dont like the sound of it doesnt mean it should not be mentioned.
Here, I am answering you, because above you said that we in Matebeleland seek to exclude the Shonas and you believe that will never work. I have just highlighted issues that point out the fact that, Shonas are not excluded in Matebeleland at all. In fact, its the Shonas who use language to exclude us in their Shona provinces, whilst in we in Mthwakazi, even if there is one Shona speaking fellow, always accommodate them all the time by speaking in Shona to them. Shonas never do this – they all close you out with “andinzwi chiNdevere”, until you change and speak to them in Shona.
You are trying to run away from the truth because you dont like it. You also have this tendency of projecting the MRP, MLO and MLF separatists as representing the people of Matebeleland, but you never explain why Tswangirayi who is Shona, is more popular than these same separatists you like talking about. You like exaggerating their influence and give them too much credit and yet people on the ground in Mthwakazi dont even know about them. Have you ever read about them in SA papers? Nobody talks about them except you.
You ask me to change; change from what to what? There is nothing to change in me – I can speak more than 3 African languages; I have Shona relatives and friends; I can speak Shona – what should I change?
Our people in Matebeleland are members of virtually any political party in Zim, irrespective of who leads it; they vote for anyone, more so for Shona leaders. They go to their rallies in numbers. They play Shona music – I can go on and on. Would you say the same for Shona people?
If anything, it is you Shonas who should change, not us!!
Firstly… No one has the title deeds of Zimbabwe…Not shonas or Ndebeles.
2.Your agenda refers to having shonas speak and recognise Ndebeles in their backyards.Im not talking about MRP or MLO .
3.Brother Zimbabwe is for Zimbabweans , Not For Separatists….I see Zimbabwe not in lenses of tribe.to me any person who fights a person from tribalistic views is not worthy of mention…I would like to see a Ndebele president one day…But it all starts with you brother…Stop Saying shonas are this or that…It will only give extremists gun powder….
It starts with you…Stop Saying change to others yet you cant change yourself….Lets all change,when you say we are not the same with shonas do you ever think of the consequences?.What is a Shona reading online thinking?…
I love all languages and all customs….I come here everyday with the hope of changing dynamics..So must you
“…….thats why your agenda will fail”. Now what agenda? I am not aware of any agenda that I have – please educate me on this?
I have just explained to you the politics and reasons for the MRP and MLO politics. That is not to say I am one of them or I share their politics. Stop imagining things – read and understand what is written only; and not dwell in perceptions and imaginations.
Apart from the MLOs and MRPs, who else excludes the Shona? Shonas are all over Mthwakazi; even compared to Matebelelanders in Mashonaland – is that a sign of being excluded? In fact; its the Shonas who since 1980 have been fighting hard to exclude Matebeleland people from national politics, by emphasising the tribal wars history of the past and who came from where.
To date, many of you still resort to this when push comes to shove in any tribal debates. Even whites and Coloureds have been forcibly excluded from Zim politics and are now mere observers, this despite bringing glory to Zim and putting the country on the map through sports like Golf, tennis and swimming. On the other hand, blacks have brought nothing to the country’s name and flag, but shame!
Shonas even point to them name of the country to claim that because its Shona, to mean the country belongs to the Shona – a wholly separatist, exclusionary and primitive ZANU PF narrative. Do you even know that, given the political standing of Joshua Nkomo at the time the name Zimbabwe was suggested; had he opposed it, it might never had seen the light of the day? But because he was no tribalistic he accepted it.
Just read the biased and divisive history of Zimbabwe that is being taught to our children in Zim schools today. Even at the national level; you would think the country is only made up of Shonas. Any wonder the Matebeleland people continue to identify ZANU PF with the Shona to this day? These are the grounds that led to the formation of the MRPs, MLFs and MLOs of this world.
Shonas just need to get over with their indoctrination with the ZANU PF politics of “this is a Shona country”. They never had this indoctrination in the Rhodesian days; hence they were fine with Matebeleland people and their space. Nobody excludes anyone anywhere – its just a Shona mentality of ZANU PF’s “nyika yedu” that is troubling them.
Be like South Africans – nobody is bothered with what Batswana are doing in the North West and Northern Cape Provinces; nobody is bothered about what the Vendas are doing in Thohoyandou; Shangaans in Giyani; Ndebele in KwaMhlanga; Zulus in eMgungundlovu; Xhosas in Mthatha. But they are still all proudly South Africans and one nation.
Some Shonas seem uncomfortable and dont even want to see Mthwakazi people celebrating or commemorating their cultural events; yet there is Umkhosi woHlanga in KZN every year as called by the King; I have never heard any Venda, Tsonga, Motswana, Xhosa, Sotho or even Afrikanner complaining. What exactly is wrong with Shonas?
South Africans even have a heritage day every year, where everyone displays their cultural present and past as one nation. Everyone celebrates and is happy. There is nobody who tries to demean or ridicule any culture or language from what ever province or region. I am sure you have noted this too yourself.
This negative obsession by Shonas of everything about Matebeleland is ZANU PF driven; and in my view is also archaic tribalistic nonsense that should stop.
It is about time we appreciated each other in all our language and cultural diversity, instead of trying to force change each other to what we believe is the ideal Zimbabwean; which in most cases its a euphemism for being Shona. We are not all Shona and Zimbabwe is not a Shona country just as it was as Rhodesia – let us all accept this and start afresh!!
Now you are raising an important issue, worthy of my attention,than your previous issue.
First,shonas are just as much victims as matebeles to Zanu pf.In mashonaland we don’t have the tribal and language diversity that matebeleland has.So as for not knowing Ndebele,that has nothing to do with shonas….In most minds ,shonas think all people know Shona in Zimbabwe.
Mugabe has been the major architect of this.
There is nothing wrong in speaking Ndebele…But for most ,this is an uphill task , especially if you think after all you don’t need it..
What MRP MLO and others will do is to throw ZIMBABWE to the dogs ,and they won’t even achieve any results.
Zimbabwe needs a change in perspectives…People who see ZIMBABWE..Not tribes ,but ZIMBABWE.We all need to learn each other’s languages…For most of us it’s too late…I neither have the will not time to change …But our kids can change.Our kids can learn each other’s languages
Self determination must never mean segregation as MRP MLO stand for…. Matebeles can create the province in their own image …But it must not mean exclusion of others , excluding shonas or others …As some of you preach.
For this reason,that’s why your agenda will fail.You need people who can separate tribal issues from national issues….Say matebeleland is for matebeles….Not Ndebeles….But Everyone who calls it home…. The moment you preach hate ,by saying shonas this ,here there …You have lost.
MLOs and MRPs have a reason for their political stance – even if we may not always agree with them. We are all fighting the same enemy, but our methodologies and solutions proposed are different.
Mugabe used Shonas to exclude Matebeleland and to invade and occupy Matebeleland jobs and many other opportunities there. Zimbabwe has become a Shona-centric nation since Mugabe came to power; unlike in the Rhodesian days.
Even in SA, which is seen as Nguni-centric, go to Thohoyandou; Vendas are very much at home them – they dont feel invaded. The same can be said of Tsonga/Shangani people in Giyani; Sothos in the Free State; Xhosas in the Eastern Cape; Coloureds in the Western Cape and Batswana in North West.
As for the Matebeles in Matebeleland, we are clearly losing our voice and identity; all because of Mugabe’s pro-Shona policies in Matebeleland; indeed everywhere in Zim.
This is the angle from where these guys are coming. To say, if this is their argument; that we dont belong to this country; then we might as well carve our own space using internationally recognised principles of self determination. Its the predominantly Shona administration at fault here; not them. Its Mugabe and ZANU PF and his Shona supporters who have forced them into a corner of exclusionary politics. Please place the blame where it squarely belongs!!
So, why not allow uMthwakazi to group themselves too back in Zim; like you do in SA? Shonas are never segregated by Mthwakazi in Zim. Mthwakazi people just want them to speak to them in their Mthwakazi languages in Mthwakazi and be a part of them. They never chase them away.
What Mthwakazi people dont want is for Shonas to come in from their provinces and start speaking to them in their Shona languages; at their funerals; Churches; weddings and many other such gatherings including political gatherings. It makes one feel like they are being invaded; being colonised within their own homes.
Matebeleland people never do this to Shonas in their home provinces; we expect Shonas to reciprocate like wise; but they refuse, instead prefer to keep pointing fingers!!.
This is a simple discussion. There is nothing tribalistic here. Its just that you people hate to be told the truth, when it comes to the issue of tribes. You are so highly emotional when it comes to this topic; hence you prefer things swept under the carpet.
In Mthwakazi we talk things over, face to face. We dont sweep them under the carpet, because our cultures dont allow for that. That is why Nguni people have Izimbizos and the Sotho group of languages also have Lekgotlas. These are long time standing traditional platforms of talking things over and moving on with life.
You people like shutting up others through false accusations of tribalism and racism – we will never allow for that; because culturally we dont solve problems by pretending they dont exist. This is why you see the Gukurahundi issue refuses to die back home; but look at you, the Murambatswina thing is already dead and buried, yet people died and homes and lives were destroyed. Where is Lovemore Jongwe? As to be expected, dead and buried and no questions asked. Where is Rashiwe Guzha? and Dzamara – same. You dont tell each other the truth; you dont stand you ground – you just swim with the tide and forget!!
For your information no shonas ever segregate against anyone in SA…Shonas will come and stay at one flat…Like from 1st to 10th floor …Not all flats …But we congregate…That’s all.
We will be living with other people…. Ndebeles,SAs etc …But we only congregate.And not separate ourselves.
If you want to find Zimbabweans.. Follow one Shona ,and where they stay ,there will be many.
Unlike other I’m an open minded person.Therr is nothing wrong in grouping as people… Nothing.
There is something grouping together,in order to exclude others..Eg MRP ,MLO etc …In Zimbabwe we have an Indian and Pakistani community which built a very beautiful community in Belvedere,Harare…But they don’t put restraints or restrictions to anyone who wants to come and stay there ..Hence are not segregative.
Saying to others ,we don’t want shonas here ..Is segregation…Even in SA ,In Centurion… Afrikaners tried creating a separate community… SAS refused….
I have no problem with the whole Mthwakazi idea…So long as it’s not for segregation of anyone.
Your so called leaders are the ones failing you sir.You have zealots leading you,they are the ones who have and will make acceptance of devolution of power or Mthwakazi agendas fail.
Just like what you did…When you spat…We are different and started attacking shonas….It showed your failure to negotiate or be reasonable.
You people are funny. You are justifying keeping to yourselves in Mzansi as survival tactics. But when Mthwakazi does the same in Zim, as a means of survival amid hordes of majority Shonas surrounding them all over and invading their provinces; you claim we are tribalistic and not national.
Your idea of being national and uniting with you appears to be only when we surrender being uMthwakazi or being our own selves, and joining Shonas and everything about Shonahood.
You believe in straight jacketing people; the typical ZANU PF culture. You dont believe unity is possible in diversity. Eish sies; quite some characters of a people you are!!
Good for you if you are employing shonas as well.I have no company,just employed on a good job.
Yes,both shonas and Ndebeles commit crimes in SA …But what is more shocking is that Ndebeles who are fewer and less .. Commit more crime and more of the most heneous,heart tearing crimes in SA….This is why iam repeating…so you understand.
Even in Zimbabwe…More crimes in Zim ,in matebeleland are done with guns and okapis ,than any other part of Zimbabwe…Where do these guns come from…. Yes,SA.
Why doesn’t this happen in mashonaland?…Were now more people go to SA ?….It boils down to a culture of the people.Shonas by nature are less prone to violence or hyper activities.
Again,more Ndebeles have more fake IDs…Yet they are fewer in number than shonas .
I have nothing against Ndebeles…Who are rational.But only zealots like you…It was you who started this tribalistic debate….But let me tell you…No matter how wrong shonas are … Ndebeles always take the cake.You lot are worse.And stats are there for you to see.Locally and internationally.
So please stop your hate,I had a good debate with other matebeles..We agreed or disagreed in peace and respect….Then there you came in ….With tribalist ideas.
Sies
No need to keep repeating yourself my man. You have already said all this before. Xenophobia in Mzansi started only after Shonas started coming to South Africa post 2000 land invasions. There was no xenophobia and there were no serious crimes by Zimbabweans in the 1980s, when the people of Matebeleland were dominant. This is a fact my man.
This “Mthwakazi commit crimes, rob etc” is just an exaggeration. Crimes are being committed by both Shonas and Mthwakazi. There are many Shonas I have met who have fake IDs with Venda, Nguni names and surnames. I also employ some on my two properties in SA; but I dont hound them, because I know the situation back home. So calm down; its not the end of the world. We can still remain united even with out differences.
Yes, we are different – but not enemies. Shonas or some Shonas dance at funerals; we dont as uMthwakazi. Shonas wombera (clap hands) as a sign of acceptance and thank you, we dont do that. We praise sing izithakazelo like the Zulus and the Xhosa and many other Nguni tribes do. Shonas have this thing of not marrying in a certain season; we dont have such. The list is endless. Yes, we are not the same; but we are one nation!
No baba,Doc never loses his cool.
Can you argue if what I said is wrong.
Are Ndebeles who can speak…Not robbing?.
Are Ndebeles who can speak not benefiting from the name ZIMBABWE we shonas made synonymous with hard work and enterprise and intelligent.
Are shonas who can’t speak not making it in education, construction and hospitality industries?
So ,sir ,what you mistaken for “… Loosing my cool..” is indignation for your lies.
Look at the link ,the most recent link of deaths in SA of Zimbabweans ….Was I wrong?.
I’m giving you stats and you say I’m losing my cool! Huh?.
Iam ready to fight with facts …Unlike you…..Who is using tribal ignorance.So it’s not losing my cool…It’s disgust at your lies.
Go to yeoville…Who stays there more?… Ndebeles, you have no facts ….Most matebeles in JHB are in Yeoville, Tembisa ,cosmos city and Florida and Hillbrow.
So you see I’m giving you stats…You giving me, assumptions.Stats on crime ….Out of ten Zimbabweans who commit crimes ,6 are Ndebeles.
Hahahaha….Lost my cool, noooo!.I’m now ready to challenge your ignorance,that’s all.With stats…I can send you stats on crimes as well
http://www.medicalbrief.co.za/archives/zimbabwean-deaths-sa-linked-hivaids/
I’m not upset….Just ignorance frustrates me.
Ndebeles have done more harm in Botswana and SA ,than the majority shonas .They Rob,if you look at the 2014 ,2015 and 2016 statistics of deaths repatriated to ZIMBABWE from SA….On the link provided you will see how ignorant your views are.
And Remember,Xhosa or Zulu or sepedi are not holy languages…..Not knowing them doesn’t translate to an unforgivable sin..They are just languages.
As I said …..Most of you guys who claim to know these languages.. You have learnt them because you committed some sort of immoral life…Eg living with whores ,or being in gangs or sleeping in taverns with your SA friends.
For most shonas…That sort of life is sorry and unacceptable…And that’s why I don’t know the language.
If I wanted to know sepedi like you,I would have found a side chick ,a mahosha or some sorry ass friends …But noooo!…I am not of that sorry stock.
You pride yourself of knowing sepedi …Huh!.
I pride myself of not knowing it but big a big man in my field in Petori.Your language can kiss my tunnel vision ass.
I stand by what I said. I stand by my views. Nothing you said has pursuaded me to change them. What is new is that you have clearly lost your cool. You now sound angrier than before; hence you are even more prone to exaggeration. I don’t buy that!!
No need to fight. No need to be angry. Just telling each other the truth my man. I know it hurts; but it nevertheless has to be told, for the sake of the progress of humanity!!
http://www.medicalbrief.co.za/archives/zimbabwean-deaths-sa-linked-hivaids/
Some evidence for your ignorant ass.
” ..Shona surnames are so unsouthern African…” Do you even hear yourself…..
There is venda in SA …And you say unsouthern African.Nxa.how do you reason man!.
Look ,Shonas , whether they can’t speak Ndebele or Zulu,or Xhosa etc ….The bottom line is..Shonas are successful in SA ,no one can argue that.You guys hide in the shadows…Being the thieves you are , robbing, raping and murdering SAs ….And even Zimbabweans .
I didn’t know Xhosa or sepedi was some holy language that we are supposed to know…I shop in Menlyn or Centurion or Midrand …i have no need for tswana.I have a PR ,my whole family , genuine ones not fake.
So you can keep your sepedi or tswana and shove it .Go to Namibia,SA even Swaziland….Shonas are there in government Jobs, Universities etc ….With our ” unsouthern African surnames..” Still Jacob Zuma ,and Ramaphosa,Etc all know their are shonas….Shonas have changed the whole Southern Africa…Now that’s saying something.
Who killed and raped a couple in SA… Ndebeles.Who was given 2 life terms in Jail .. Because they raped , murdered fellow Zimbabweans.. Ndebeles….Who escaped from jail in Botswana… Ndebeles.
Hell man,we are not the same.I agree.Tell you what …You keep talking sepedi..We will speak English…But take all the jobs.hahahahah
Just thought I’d tell you the other side.But I see I have struck a nerve .
I will always be open minded to your views.But as I said ,the grouping of shonas is nothing new….Nigerians do it ,go to Sunnyside in Pretoria,go to Capetown,go to Johannesburg.All people do it man…..It’s survival tactics..Even south Africans do it…When they move to Pretoria….Or JHB from Limpopo or KZN they tend to settle in the same areas .
Vendas do it,Zulus do it….You just lack self esteem in who you are.Learning Zulu or sepedi doesn’t translate to intelligence or wisdom..As I said a language is learnt because of need and desire..
If you want to be honest ,you know the shit you have done,the unholy life and associations you have had….So please spare us.All the Ndebeles and shonas who claim to speak these languages have done so by mostly being immoral…a price too high for some of us ,sir .
You keep your languages …As if they will give you more advantage.Shonas have shaped things in SA no one can deny that …Not because we can speak ,but we have skills and qualifications.
You guys try to blend in,try to appear SA but you are just poor ,broke fakes …No more worth than a jar of dirt.
Applause to shonas who despite hardships, despite language barriers have made it in South Africa.
Why do most Ndebeles end up in crime…Since shonas are more in SA ,it should be shonas involved in crime …..Yet many more Ndebeles are involved in robbinn, raping and murder.This is fact.
Just,last week 12 of you guys(matebeles) escaped from jail in Botswana ..Of the 12 only one was Shona ..The rest of the murderers were Ndebeles…..It says a lot.
4000 people were sent in coffins last year,55% were from Matebeleland,25 % from masvingo,5% from Harare ,and15% Chipinge.Hiw do you explain that.
These stats are real my man.Not some exaggeration …But real.
I’m done with you….you were right, we’re not the same
An unnecessarily long, winding and boring narrative.
All you have done is to confirm what I have said; that we are not the same; of course with some exaggeration.
Your examples are inappropriate. Shonas are African and black; unlike Indians, whites etc – so why keep away from other blacks? White, Indian, Asian languages are so different from African languages. Even some Nigerians speak Xhosa and Zulus; they are not Bantu like us, with similarities in languages, but they now know the languages.
I know of Shona kids who came to SA at the age of three. They have now finished University, but they still cant speak a single black language. A clear sign of bad Shona parental influence on innocent children; what more would you expect of them in Zim where they are the majority and also arrogant backed by an equally arrogant predominantly Shona government?
Shonas are only dominate because of their numbers in SA. As we have said before; Shonas were favoured by Mugabe in Zim. That is why they were few in the 1980s, when Mthwakazi dominated. They only started flocking to SA after 2000.
Today out of every 10 Shonas in SA; there is one Mthwakazi.
The most recent xenophibic attacks confirmed this. That is why all buses that carried Zims back went to Harare, not Bulawayo. A funeral Parlour also recently confirmed that the majority of the dead taken back to Zim are headed for burial in Shona provinces.
You are also lying; the majority of poor Zims in SA are Shona. Go to the streets of Polokwane; go to that bar in Church Street, not far fron the Union buildings, in Pretoria; go to Musina, Cape Town – all those people are Shona. Mthwakazi people are so few and are mostly found in Johannesburg, Hillbrow. Those spread out thin are the educated ones and can hardly be noticed, because they speak local languages and are integrated into local communities.
Thier African names and surnames are also similar to those of South Africans, Swazis, Batswana and Sothos. except for the obviously typically Zim ones like Lovemore or Innocent.
Shonas are noticeable because they separate themselves. Some try to disguise themselves as Vendas, but their lies are easily found out since they cant even speak the language.
I know of Shonas at work who hide their office name tags, because they dont want to be noticed easily as Shonas. Shona names and surnames are so obviously un-Southern African – so easy to pick out.
No my friend; we are not the same. But we dont have to be enemies or hate each other. We are all countryman!!
Well suit yourself…If you think you are different from shonas ,great .
I’m one of them,who has lived in SA for more than 15 years ,I can’t speak any other language except english.But so too most Afrikaners,Germans,Indians who are in SA…Does that mean they have tunnel vision?.
Learning a language is a matter of having a need and having interest.
Most matebeles go to SA poor ,broke, without skills or anything.Hence are forced to live in mukhukus,and in Khasi areas eg Mamelodi, Thembisa….I came to SA ….Got a good job start staying in a apartment in Centurion…10 years later I bought the property.I’m working in a English and Afrikaans speaking environment….So for me Sotho ,tswana are not much relevant.Hence I don’t know them.
And to show you,you lack vision….Who told you when abroad you must mingle with locals?.
Everywhere around the world… People group together for security reasons…. Even in Zimbabwe…We have Indians buying property in Belvedere,in SA Centurion is a mostly Afrikaners area…It’s only natural.
For most matebeles…They do want to be associated with ZIMBABWE..They want to pretend to locals that they are SAs ..So that they can learn languages and get close to shaddy deals eg how to get close to Home affairs offical to get fake IDs…. Actually, matebeles in SA have a shocking low self esteem.
A person,a matebele ,can stay in SA pretending to be SA …Even abusing fellow Zimbabweans so that they get a few scraps …Whilst the loud shonas ….They come,they are what they are…..They don’t pretend or apologize for it. ..SA’s have learnt to love shonas…. Because most are educated,skilled and sound plain intelligent
If I were to compare the success of shonas and Ndebeles in SA ,shonas have performed well better, especially considering they can’t speak..Yet they are all over as you said ….Al the jobs ,every sector…So I say the loud ,tunnel vision ed shonas are fairing well better than Ndebeles.
When SAs think of Zimbabwe…They think shonas.When you say you are Shona or Zimbabwean…Most companies take you just like that…Most companies like Zimbabweans ,mostly in education….Why because of shonas….Who never pretended to be SAs …..You guys were in SAS the only thing you achieved was getting fake IDs, staying with some Sotho ,and getting some RDP in Mamelodi…..And getting SASSA grants with your fake IDs .
I have been in SA …For most people to learn local languages…They have had to live immorally…Eg dating mahoshas(prostitutes) ,or having makwapenis ( small houses) or being in gangs with local SAs …or plain debauchery…..We who stay in SA know how you learnt to speak those languages…That’s why most Ndebeles end up having guns , getting arrested…Or killed… Because of your so called mingling with locals…..
Can you explain to me why the number of Zimbabweans who die every year it’s mostly matebeles… Especially from Gwanda,Lupane etc .. Why?…Less people from Mashonaland die?…. Amongst the mashonas the greatest number of dead are from masvingo..But still they are leads than matebeleland.
The reason,my fine friend ,is matebeles live more wildly ,engage in crime more ,and get killed through set ups by SAS who use their inferiority complexes…to want to fit in to do the donkey work.
Hahaha….Trust a Ndebele in SA at your peril, most are lazy…Even when they get the fake IDs..They drink themselves silly and stupid…Live with whores or get appliances on credit and change addresses..Most Ndebeles are on SA wanted list…..Why?…Why do you have guns ?
I can’t go on…Lest I hurt the feelings of some fine Ndebeles with the truth.
No, we are not the same. Shonas are usually dirty, untidy and disorganised.
Their leadership, management and administrative skills are always questionable. Most of them have an inferiority complex.
They are easily corruptible and are prone to nepotism. They like bragging and everywhere they are never cool calm and collected. They are noisy too.
Never trust a Shona in a job or business; he will ruin you.
Shonas generally cant learn languages. They are tunnel visioned and are not long term thinkers. They are not nation builders. Most of them speak only one African language; their mother tongue. Their horizons are generally limited to their own tribesmen even overseas on foreign lands.
Right across the Limpopo, most of them only associate with each other. Some have lived in SA for over ten years but still cant speak any other African language other than their own Shona mother tongue.
No, I refuse we are not the same. Lets stop pretending.
You are obviously talking of Shonas. They were Mugabe’s Shonas!!
What you are doing is known as selective perception. I think we have progressively and open mindlessly debated the issue. People need answers when issues are raised whether they are negative or positive. Debates help exchange points which could be either wrong nor right no emotions attached. As a people we should allow debates to flourish in spite of the fact whether we agree with it or not. Stifling or being emotive in political debates is not good for the country. When ever we enter into a debate the purpose is to find each other, socialise and build a country. Many politicians are not as innocent and humble as we may believe. If they were, we could not be in such chaotic mess.
I agree with most of your views,so we are on the same page…Only looking at different angles, which is not a bad thing as it promotes diversity of views.No one single view is always correct.
It’s time ,shonas and Ndebeles, realise we are the same ,save for the language.Our customs are the same, reasoning the same .. History the same .
Thanks for the other side.
Thank you for the debate. You argue with an open mind. I will consider the points you have raised, I hope you will consider mine. It our duty to build a progressive leadership in the country and to do that we need to ask hard questions about their past. thanks Brother. We may meet again in our discussions
Why was he a commissar in Mash Central while he hails from Manicaland.
This is not a question to worry about there is nothing wrong to be a ZAPU provincial something in Mashonaland yet you come from Madhlambuzi. Even during the war you were operating as a ZIPRA comrade in Sipolilo yet you were from Mbembezi. It does not matter and simply because some ZIPRA combatants were involved in some atrocities like Gaigusu should not be used to taint all ZIPRA combatants. NO Mboko knows the culprits and why is he avoiding them if he realy want to show Zimbabweans that the Gukurahundi atrocities should be condemned, after all he is from Matebeleland he should be more sympathetic with his people to show that he is a normal patriotic person. What he is displaying is a sign of greediness and selfishness and licking Mugabe’s ass for more privileges.
As I said the mere association with Zanu should never be the reason to say somrone is wrong.
Let’s have the evidence of his foul play
Lets see what he did and we can all persecute him.
After world war II,not all Nazi commanders were persecuted…Only those who had a hand in the killings.Point made.
Correct. Remember Mash Central was the Headquarters of the notorious Youth Brigade. Maybe it still is Border Gezi. and a commissar in that province at that space in time. The Youth Brigade are a political tool created by commissars for strategic puporses. and during that time, it was to go and annihilate the Ndebeles. and that is where Tswangirai was based. When these youth armies were sent to Matebeleland from Mash Central to Matebeleland what did he think they were going to do and what did he do about it since they were under his jurisdiction. Why Matebeleland? Lets assume he did not physically partake in Maebeleland, the products of such heinous barbaric and inhuman treatment came from his province. Why was he a commissar in Mash Central while he hails from Manicaland. We appreciate the work he has done and doing as an opposition leader but do not change the course of history. We do not want omalume pozisa. (Biting someone, then blowing the air where you have bitten so that the pain may).
I think such an allegation could have been believable if it was raised in the past. Y has everyone in zanupf been quiet about such a damaging piece of information? It’s handy ammunition
You have some valid points I will not argue against.
1.Yes we must name and shame people who were of influence during gukurahundi,ho did nothing.
2.If Tsvangarai was privy to the debate and murder of matebeles then he must named ,shamed and prosecuted in the new Zimbabwe.
3.Unlike other zealots , I believe the blood of any Zimbabwean is scared … Unlike what you suggest that it’s because it’s matebele blood so I commented how I did.All life is precious.
Now here’s were I disagree with you.
1.Tsvangirai was not national commissar ,but for mash central.Only the national commissar will be in the politburo with Mugabe ,and other devils …Unless Tsvangarai had some other post I didn’t know of ..He was never privy to Zanu top secrets .
Having been a member of Zanu or being in the army or CIO doesn’t mean one had a hand in the killings..We can’t say everyone who was employed by ZNA had a hand in the killings….That’s just overreaching.Most members of ZNA never knew what was going on.. Remember the 5th brigrade was answerable only to Mugabe directly.
So how would most soldiers or a lowly commissar from mash west have political influence let alone be in the circle of knowledge of Mugabe’s closely guarded secrets?…..Hence why I agreed with the post of Bhuka above.
2.Let us Remember that Zanu is a political party like any other,save that it is in power and has committed atrocities..So being a member of Zanu should never be seen as if it’s a deadly unforgivable sin.And around 1980s Zanu was a party of choice , obviously,for anyone, particularly shonas.
So one should never explain why they were in the party,or why.Remeber freedom of association.Moses Mzila created his Bakalanga party…Which he later called ANSA….That’s freedom of expression.So lets not blame Tsvangarai for being in an obvious one and only choice at the time, Zanu.So if matebeles are sitting around and Saying Tsvangarai was in Zanu before…So what?.Who wasn’t in Zanu…Big deal.
Every person after 1987..Was apolitical or was Zanu or a member of some small party like Zanu Ndoga …Zanu was the only real choice.
At the time of gukurahundi I was a recent graduate,and was working in government,under economic planning,so should I also be held accountable?.
MRP president Mqondisi..Was account clerk at Agritex so is he also responsible for gukurahundi?.
Even as new Zimbabwe,I doubt we will ban Zanu…It will be illegal and undemocratic.
3.As you said , Tsvangarai was in Zanu.Yet we have never had of any dirty secrets that Tsvangarai has been exposed off.That says a lot, because if Zanu and Jonathan Moyo and other devils had any information on Tsvangarai to tarnish him I’m supposing they would have done it by now…Seeing as how nothing has been thrown at him of former activities in Zanu , I’m assuming he is clean.
4.What should be more worrying to you and what actually is that you are not even critical of the person who is critical of Tsvangarai.
It betrays your own bias… Mphoko and the likes of Jonathan Moyo have lost the high ground to comment on anyone about morality or gukurahundi.Infact I would have thought you lot(matebeles) see him as sellouts….but here you are critical of Tsvangarai,but Mphoko is let slip!….It’s a shame.
Here is Mphoko,supping with the devil, coming to matebeleland to preach to fellow matebeles about joining a party that killed his keen..And you critise Tsvangarai!
You see nothing wrong with Mphoko who tells you about Tsvangarai ,being a provincial commissar..But he is at the top helping to make decisions for vampires who craft laws to burden and abuse shonas and Ndebeles!.
Very interesting.
I tend to differ with you. I disagree with you when you say no one should be blamed for the mass killing of Ndebeles because the majority of people supported ZANU PF. in other words you are saying if a ruling party has a majority of supporters it should kill people. From Mathebeleland region this is no a shocker that Tswangirai was a commissar in ZANY PF, the region all knows it. If naming of who had influential post during the Gugurahundi is done, let it not be selective, whether you are a ZANU PF or an MDC, if you had an influence during hat time let people know then they will divide if to support you or not. We have an example of people like the former war vet leader JB. We all know he was active during the 2008 elections in a ZANU PF ticket. Can we then exclude him when people mention that he was participating in election violence just because he has joined the opposition. The same principle should be applied to all those who were holding position during the Gukurahundi despite the fact that they have switched positions. A commissar has so much influence within a political establishment particularly in a revolutionary party like ZANU Pf. Campaign strategies are often drafted by these crafted positions and since ha time ZANU PF had no much support in Matebeleland Tswangirai was one of the commissars. I may not be privy to what he did but people should accept that he held a particular position that try to make him a saint
Ndiyani akaronga nekutuma mauto kunoponda vanhu kuMatabeleland? Hatidi kupedzera tsvimbo kumakunguo.
Your analysis is spot on…I will not add my own comments lest I spoil yours
Majority of Zimbabwean who were eligible to vote were either members or and supporters of ZANU PF during the 1980 independence elections and that is why ZANU PG won the elections, This was the reasonable thing anyone could have done at that time and no one should be blamed for that. What would a commissar in Mashonaland have to do with the atrocities being carried out in Matebeleland, so shall we say all those who were supporting ZANU PF then are responsible for that
The Mboko has many questions to ask by betraying his ZIPRA comrades, as Dabengwa and he will tell you everything.